Comments on: Ascension of Christ. http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/ McKinney TX Homilies, scripture commentary, spiritual reflections Tue, 21 May 2013 19:41:23 +0000 hourly 1 By: Deborah http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-1899 Deborah Tue, 02 Jun 2009 15:00:20 +0000 http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/?p=899#comment-1899 Yuliya, Coming from a non-Orthodox, Protestant background I can tell you that while most evangelical/Protestant denominations do believe in a physical resurrection of the dead, it has been my experience that it is not widely taught or mentioned--at least not in the churches and denomination that I grew up in. I grew up thinking that we would be in Heaven as spirits and I was surprised as young adult, through the study of scripture, to discover otherwise. So it does not surprise me that you have encountered this idea--and your friend may actually be ignorant not only of scripture, but of her church's own teachings. As to scriptures teaching that it is wrong to pray to/for the dead, I don't know for sure, but your non-Orthodox friend may be misunderstanding and/or misusing the command against the use of mediums and spiritists who claim to contact the dead and speak for them--and be thinking of Saul's attempt to contact Samuel through the Witch of Endor. As far as praying 'for' the dead, most evangelical denominations would consider that wrong because they would consider it pointless. I don't know which scriptures they use to justify this doctrine but it is essentially believed that once a person dies his destiny is set for all eternity and the Final Judgment is just basically a formality to finalize and announce his fate. Hope this helps. Deborah Yuliya,

Coming from a non-Orthodox, Protestant background I can tell you that while most evangelical/Protestant denominations do believe in a physical resurrection of the dead, it has been my experience that it is not widely taught or mentioned–at least not in the churches and denomination that I grew up in. I grew up thinking that we would be in Heaven as spirits and I was surprised as young adult, through the study of scripture, to discover otherwise. So it does not surprise me that you have encountered this idea–and your friend may actually be ignorant not only of scripture, but of her church’s own teachings.

As to scriptures teaching that it is wrong to pray to/for the dead, I don’t know for sure, but your non-Orthodox friend may be misunderstanding and/or misusing the command against the use of mediums and spiritists who claim to contact the dead and speak for them–and be thinking of Saul’s attempt to contact Samuel through the Witch of Endor.

As far as praying ‘for’ the dead, most evangelical denominations would consider that wrong because they would consider it pointless. I don’t know which scriptures they use to justify this doctrine but it is essentially believed that once a person dies his destiny is set for all eternity and the Final Judgment is just basically a formality to finalize and announce his fate.

Hope this helps.

Deborah

]]> By: Yuliya http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-1891 Yuliya Sun, 31 May 2009 03:53:23 +0000 http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/?p=899#comment-1891 Thank you Natalia and Nicholas. I agree with both of you. Thank you for showing me the place in the Acts which talks about it. For some reason, I was not surprised to see it was my beloved St. Paul, who also speaks so clear, simple and to the point about the most complicated and mystical matters. That's why I love to read him. Thank you Natalia and Nicholas. I agree with both of you. Thank you for showing me the place in the Acts which talks about it. For some reason, I was not surprised to see it was my beloved St. Paul, who also speaks so clear, simple and to the point about the most complicated and mystical matters. That’s why I love to read him.

]]> By: Natalia Arzhantseva http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-1888 Natalia Arzhantseva Sat, 30 May 2009 18:57:57 +0000 http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/?p=899#comment-1888 Maybe I am not right, but I devote more of my soul praying for the reposed, and of course -church prayers, expecially by priests at Liturgy...as our dear departed cannot do anything themselves any more, and our prayers, as Church teaches us, is a powerful tool in mending their fate beyond the grave. Of course, as our Holy Fathers say, the best commemoration of the departed is the righteous life of those who pray here for them, i.e. of us. Well, not many of us can boast of it:-) A stumbling stone! Though - there is always room for improvement. And this motivation - is really strong! If we love the reposed, and if we want to inherit blessed Eternity. Maybe I am not right, but I devote more of my soul praying for the reposed, and of course -church prayers, expecially by priests at Liturgy…as our dear departed cannot do anything themselves any more, and our prayers, as Church teaches us, is a powerful tool in mending their fate beyond the grave. Of course, as our Holy Fathers say, the best commemoration of the departed is the righteous life of those who pray here for them, i.e. of us. Well, not many of us can boast of it:-) A stumbling stone! Though – there is always room for improvement. And this motivation – is really strong! If we love the reposed, and if we want to inherit blessed Eternity.

]]> By: Natalia Arzhantseva http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-1887 Natalia Arzhantseva Sat, 30 May 2009 18:47:41 +0000 http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/?p=899#comment-1887 Nicholas, you possess a precious ability to express important things in a few words, whereas I do totally the contrary:-) Thank you very much for your explanation, for me infornative as well. BTW, I heard from someone long ago a similar question. I thought if we take it simply logically, why not pray for the departed? We believe in eternal life, we believe that the division between "this" & "future" life is quite convention, as it's a matter of terminology & these 2 notions are used in order to explain many things. Actually our life is not devided, it's a united process, which begins here & lasts here for a while, and then passes into another state. The process which has its beginning but has no end. The major difference, as I see it is that here we have a free will, which we can direct either for achieving eternal salvation or condemnation, here we can improve something, repent & change - things & ourselves. There we'll not have such a possibility (though prayers of those who are here for us when we depart may influence somehow, but anyway we are responsible for the verdict & no one can live our life for us). There - the process is terminated, and we get a result. So, if life is a united uninterrupted process, with the difference in the forms of a person's existence - then if we pray for those who are with us here on the Earth, why shouldn't we pray for those departed? Why should we deprive them of this privilege? Only because they departed? Seems illogical. If I deviated, pls correct. Nicholas, you possess a precious ability to express important things in a few words, whereas I do totally the contrary:-)
Thank you very much for your explanation, for me infornative as well.
BTW, I heard from someone long ago a similar question. I thought if we take it simply logically, why not pray for the departed? We believe in eternal life, we believe that the division between “this” & “future” life is quite convention, as it’s a matter of terminology & these 2 notions are used in order to explain many things. Actually our life is not devided, it’s a united process, which begins here & lasts here for a while, and then passes into another state. The process which has its beginning but has no end. The major difference, as I see it is that here we have a free will, which we can direct either for achieving eternal salvation or condemnation, here we can improve something, repent & change – things & ourselves. There we’ll not have such a possibility (though prayers of those who are here for us when we depart may influence somehow, but anyway we are responsible for the verdict & no one can live our life for us). There – the process is terminated, and we get a result.
So, if life is a united uninterrupted process, with the difference in the forms of a person’s existence – then if we pray for those who are with us here on the Earth, why shouldn’t we pray for those departed? Why should we deprive them of this privilege? Only because they departed? Seems illogical.
If I deviated, pls correct.

]]> By: Rdr. Nicholas http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-1883 Rdr. Nicholas Sat, 30 May 2009 02:26:28 +0000 http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/?p=899#comment-1883 Yuliya, Those who depart this life now endure separation of their soul from their body. The body lies in the grave and undergoes "corruption," while the soul passes on to the next life. Only the Lord himself and the Theotokos are already in heaven with their bodies. At the end of the age, these same dead are reunited with their bodies, which are the same bodies that they had in life, but in a renewed form. This is what St. Paul is speaking about in 1 Corinthians 15: "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." On the second question, the simple answer is no, there is no place in Scripture where it says we may not pray for the departed. This questions deserves a longer answer, but I don't have time now : ) Yuliya,

Those who depart this life now endure separation of their soul from their body. The body lies in the grave and undergoes “corruption,” while the soul passes on to the next life. Only the Lord himself and the Theotokos are already in heaven with their bodies. At the end of the age, these same dead are reunited with their bodies, which are the same bodies that they had in life, but in a renewed form. This is what St. Paul is speaking about in 1 Corinthians 15: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

On the second question, the simple answer is no, there is no place in Scripture where it says we may not pray for the departed.

This questions deserves a longer answer, but I don’t have time now : )

]]> By: Yuliya http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-1879 Yuliya Thu, 28 May 2009 23:19:14 +0000 http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/?p=899#comment-1879 I would like to ask a question for self-educating purposes. Once when I spoke to a non-Orthodox, I heard that those who are departed are in heaven as spirits. The whole idea was so alien to me, I felt it was wrong but could not quote the Gospel. As it is mentioned in Question 1, orthodox tradition says that those who believe and live according to the Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ "..will be in the heavens, in the flesh, with Him, just as He now abides in the Heavens in the flesh. Our flesh and souls will be saved, because Christ made human flesh capable of deification...". I don't want to be like that person, but could you direct me to the place in the Gospel which talks a little more that we (and those who already departed) will be in heavens in flesh not as spirits. Since I already touched the subject about departed, is there a place in the Bible where it is said that it is not permitted to pray for those who are dead? I heard it in another conversation with a non-Orthodox when trying to explain why we pray to saints. Thank you. I would like to ask a question for self-educating purposes. Once when I spoke to a non-Orthodox, I heard that those who are departed are in heaven as spirits. The whole idea was so alien to me, I felt it was wrong but could not quote the Gospel. As it is mentioned in Question 1, orthodox tradition says that those who believe and live according to the Ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ “..will be in the heavens, in the flesh, with Him, just as He now abides in the Heavens in the flesh. Our flesh and souls will be saved, because Christ made human flesh capable of deification…”. I don’t want to be like that person, but could you direct me to the place in the Gospel which talks a little more that we (and those who already departed) will be in heavens in flesh not as spirits.
Since I already touched the subject about departed, is there a place in the Bible where it is said that it is not permitted to pray for those who are dead? I heard it in another conversation with a non-Orthodox when trying to explain why we pray to saints.
Thank you.

]]> By: Rdr. Nicholas Park http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-1869 Rdr. Nicholas Park Wed, 27 May 2009 03:56:51 +0000 http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/?p=899#comment-1869 Thank you, Natalia. Beautiful thought. Thank you, Natalia. Beautiful thought.

]]> By: Natalia Arzhantseva http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2009/05/25/ascension-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-1866 Natalia Arzhantseva Tue, 26 May 2009 15:19:42 +0000 http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/?p=899#comment-1866 When I think of this Feast, I often remember the words by St. Isaac the Syrian: "The way of God is a daily cross. No one has ascended into heaven through an easy life." When I began my church life, for a long time I felt a great relief on this day. I was happy... for Christ. As we are glad for a person who was for a long time cut off from his relatives, from his home, from what he loves, from everything he can name "his". As if this person returns from something alien, a stranger surrounded by those whom he does not belong to. And finally - this all is ended, and he can return to his natural surroundings. This way I perceived what happened with Christ. I felt much triumf - that the justice crowed over evethything, the truch has won, sorrows have ended. Temporary gave place to Eternal. I even wrote a poem on the Ascension day. If we for a moment could realise what a soul feels which parts from this sinful world and is going to ascend to God, to join Him - what a joy, what a victory. and all this - for endless time! The Gospel shows us, discloses to us how it happens, giving us the description of Christ's Ascension. This is the moment of the eternal triumph. But if we want it, we should carry our cross, we should get through our way, enduring everything we are to suffer. Whatever happens - it is so short in the face of Blessed Eternity! Christ does not promise us an easy life, but He calles us for reigning with Him. Eternally. If we hear His appeal & follow Him. When I think of this Feast, I often remember the words by St. Isaac the Syrian: “The way of God is a daily cross. No one has ascended into heaven through an easy life.”
When I began my church life, for a long time I felt a great relief on this day. I was happy… for Christ. As we are glad for a person who was for a long time cut off from his relatives, from his home, from what he loves, from everything he can name “his”. As if this person returns from something alien, a stranger surrounded by those whom he does not belong to. And finally – this all is ended, and he can return to his natural surroundings. This way I perceived what happened with Christ. I felt much triumf – that the justice crowed over evethything, the truch has won, sorrows have ended. Temporary gave place to Eternal. I even wrote a poem on the Ascension day.
If we for a moment could realise what a soul feels which parts from this sinful world and is going to ascend to God, to join Him – what a joy, what a victory. and all this – for endless time! The Gospel shows us, discloses to us how it happens, giving us the description of Christ’s Ascension. This is the moment of the eternal triumph. But if we want it, we should carry our cross, we should get through our way, enduring everything we are to suffer. Whatever happens – it is so short in the face of Blessed Eternity! Christ does not promise us an easy life, but He calles us for reigning with Him. Eternally. If we hear His appeal & follow Him.

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